Emil Amos: A conflict persists within us between naivety and wisdom

Hailing from Portland, Oregon, the rock outfit Grails is renowned not just for their discography, but for the long-lasting echoes they leave within the listener’s mind. This conversation with founding member, American songwriter, and drummer Emil Amos reveals both the band’s philosophical depth and their sharp perspective on the fractures of the modern world.

Spanning a wide spectrum—from his special bond with Istanbul and the dystopian malaise bred by capitalism to skate culture and collective production practices—Amos emphasizes that Grails constructs a deep-rooted narrative that withstands the test of time.

As the band prepares to take the stage on February 18th at Ankara’s Kulüp Müjgan and on February 19th at Istanbul’s Blind, we sat down with Emil Amos before this highly anticipated concert series. In this interview, where we dissect the band’s intellectual and emotional framework, we find an opportunity to take a closer look at the mystical world of Grails.

‘Sometimes, we even DJ in Kadıköy’

Considering the uncertainty and hidden forces explored in ‘Deep Politics’, how do you approach performing in a city as dynamic and unpredictable as Istanbul? 

Emil Amos: Its safe to say that we can’t crack the code of most of the cities we play and barely have enough time to truly get to know them sadly. Being in a band on the road for 25 years sometimes means that you’re only understanding of Philadelphia may be knowing a good place to smoke a cigarette by a dumpster in a particular alley. But Istanbul has long been our favorite city and we usually try to take some days off there and sometimes DJ in Kadıköy. Thankfully we have some wonderful friends there that help guide us to the best record stores and restaurants too. 

Does ‘Future Primitive’ reflect your own take on John Zerzan’s thoughts, or was it more about just feeling inspired by his ideas? 

“Future Primitive” was actually a reference to one of the first skateboard videos that birthed its modern culture and helping bring ramp skating to the streets about 10 years before that Zerzan book! In a random way there are some parallels between the two subjects though. Zerzan’s take is important and entirely inevitable… it’d be interesting to read that book now as I’m sure a lot of what he said has only become more true. 

As a skateboarder, we generally don’t cross the street in the same way most people do under the guidance of basic rules. And that fits with his assertion that our modern societal template was created to better control people… which can be a difficult point to make at a backyard BBQ when most people would generally disagree and say that laws are made to protect people. Its very difficult to have these conversations out in the world as it appears to me that our brain chemistries are relatively hard-wired… so you can’t just explain a core emotional point about the intention of all society and manage to re-direct someone’s mind by much of a ratio. I remember 1994 well though (when Zerzan put this book out) and we were a much more naive culture in some ways back then. The world seems to have advanced aggressively into a kind of late-stage dystopian capitalism now that’s making 1994 look a lot more like the 1950’s. 

Each of your albums seems to construct its own distinct “world.” How do you perceive the philosophical continuity—or rupture—between these different worlds? 

Expressing virtually anything and having it successfully communicate something of greater value to another person is a pretty daunting task if you begin to question the feat at all. So much emotion gets watered down in the process and then one must put it in front of others in the most constructive, evocative way. Given these hurdles, we might as well attempt to shove as much emotional content into any opportunity we have and then stand back and hope it worked. But if you kept standing back from your work and seeing that the result was always the same it’d be somewhat heartbreaking. So some living has to be done in between records and, inevitably, our interests tend to shift as we study history. When we return to the canvas and carve out a new shape, you would hope it displays something new you’ve learned… and if you’re lucky, the shape that will weather time with some basic integrity and staying power. Time and changing perspective seem to govern the artistic differences of these records though… with naivety vs. wisdom being somewhat at war within you while you’re struggling to make the message connect. 

‘The old world possessed a Dostoevskian melancholy’

In what ways does the band’s evolving sonic narrative reflect shifting philosophical concerns—such as their engagement with themes of temporality, uncertainty, or transcendence—across different stages of their career? 

When you are naive, you strike with a certain youthful venom. And later on, when you are wiser, you tend to be more efficient. Which one is a better approach is relative and up to the listener to decide. 

How does the atmospheric tension and emotive restraint characteristic of Grails’ ‘Burden of Hope’ resonate when contrasted with the aesthetic and psychological sensibilities that define contemporary musical culture? 

Burden of Hope comes from a simpler time when people made records standing in a room together. Music essentially comes through the prism of the computer now which can be great and horrible too! At first the advantage of computers just seemed like a matter of convenience. But now that the younger generations grow up with all this technology, there’s not a lot of connection to the bluegrass days where people recorded all huddled around one microphone. That creates a different kind of color palette and sometimes carries aesthetic assumptions about what art is supposed to be. I don’t think we really liked the technological situation we were in with Burden of Hope either; so maybe in a strange way human beings are always trying to get somewhere else. 

Across the journey from your debut to your most recent album, which elements of Grails’ identity have remained constant, and which have undergone a fundamental transformation? 

EA: In ways everything seems the same! If you reduce our temperament to its core, Burden of Hope seemed to have some kind of old world, Dostoevskian sadness to it. It was unintentional and also totally intentional at the same time. Like Sandy Denny or Nick Drake sitting down at the piano or guitar, the feeling always seems to be consistent. Technology and computer abilities have changed completely… so that’s given us more ways to tweak our sentiment. But the core feeling always seems to stay the same. 

‘Coming to Istanbul means experiencing authentic culture’

Listeners often see distinct ‘eras’ when comparing the minimal, introspective atmosphere of ‘The Burden of Hope’ with the more epic and structured aesthetic of ‘Anches En Maat’. How do you interpret these perceived eras? 

Its good to have favorites for sure and ‘eras’ are inevitable over this much time. But I can’t imagine thinking that Everybody Knows this is Nowhere is better than Harvest Moon just because of the way it sounds. The integrity has to lie within the pieces of art themselves. Anches still has a lot of minimal moments too… I think its not quite as “personal” of a record because we weren’t as depressed at the time of its writing. But, as fans of different records in other artist’s catalogs, each record should have a different mood that could almost contradict the others. I think there will be more personal, minimal music coming from this band as we’re bound to get extremely depressed again soon! 

In the context of ‘Deep Politics’, which already explores instability and concealed forces, what kind of visibility or presence does Grails seek to embody in an increasingly unpredictable world? 

Popular culture seems centrally based around the attempt to be taken away from one’s problems. So we can only hope to bring people right back into facing what they fear!… Not that there are any answers there. 

What’s the most exciting part for you about performing these concepts live for fans in Istanbul, especially after several years? 

It feels unusual to resonate with others in a community at all anymore but especially regionally. In a somewhat region-less world, coming to Istanbul represents actually getting to experience actual culture because the USA feels like an endless strip of mini-malls and the result of a kind of Western mass de- personalization. We’re so happy to have an audience in Istanbul and your music is obviously one of our favorites, but I’m personally really looking forward to several days of eating your cuisine!… Its the best food in the world.